The sky is falling!

[Magnified]

You and me both...

 

[SilverBillet]

Ok, I guess we need to do this, the AAR was not top dog, the top dog was a 426 Hemi. The AAR was created for a race class. It was all about a race class and the motor was de-stroked to 304 cubic inches, it was a track car, not a drag car. It did lack luster in the series, hence, no one cars, IMO.

If you want to compare the cars, then compare top dog to top dog, what is the worth of a 1970 or 1971 hemi cuda? There is a reason you went with the AAR, you know the truth. What is the value of a 1970 hemi cuda? Boom

I do not think the Demon is the Hemi Cuda of tomorrow. Too many produced. As far as the 30 year value, the thing to consider in comparison is how much will a $100,000 investment today be worth in 30 years? A car is typically not a good investment. Most of the Hemi cars bought back in the day were bought by people who wanted the baddest hotrod they could afford...even if it was mostly parked in the garage. It’s changed a lot today because of flippers and the feeding frenzy at these collector car auctions. Thanks to B-J’s and Mecum for the market adjustments on new limited production cars! As far as flippers, more power to them. As far as real car enthusiasts, enjoy your hot rod as much as you can any way that you want to!

 

[motorhead]

It's not like Dodge, Chrysler, FCA, whatever they're called this month has done owners any favors over the years.

2008 SRT8 Challenger - limited edition dash plaque numbered cars supposedly the ONLY year you'd see Hemi Orange - $10K+ ADM
2009 - SRT8 Challenger improved in several ways, first year of the M6, and yes.....Hemi Orange was available (I had one) and I got it for $11K off MSRP.
Folks who paid ADM = PISSED

2015 Hellcat - HUGE ADM (I personally saw people report as much as $25K)
2016 Hellcat - can't give them away. Dodge screwed the 2015 buyers by not producing all the orders placed after everyone was assured "we'll build all that we can sell". Offered vouchers to those purchasers for $5K off a 2016, but raised the price $10K. People cancelled orders, the market is flooded with the unwanted 2016 model. I bought one that had sat for 6 months on the dealer lot for $12K off MSRP and many others got some great deals.

2018 Dodge Demon - pretty impressive and ground breaking production car in my opinion. FCA played up the exclusivity of only 3300 units but pretended they'd have checks and balances in place to avoid ADM, but in the end ADM through the roof once again. Promised to be a one year and done car.
2019 Dodge Hellcat RE - not a Demon but might as well be, then comes the Chrysler buck program $1 off per HP making the RE a steal.

Now we're hearing rumor of some even more crazy car that may or may not be built. If it's crazier than the Demon, well.......

If what I've read about the C8 Vette is true then quickest/fastest will all be relative.

These cars won't be like 1970s models where kids that were in high school Dads or brothers had them and they were optioned in such a way you could have a 1 of 1 car with the nostalgia to go with it making the prices emotionally driven. Kids of today will be looking for a Tesla or Honda Civic at Barrett in 2050.

To further put things into perspective: In 1987 the US population was ~245,000,000 people and Buick made ~27,000 Turbo Regals and just 547 GNXs (quickest production car of its time). The US population in 2018 was ~325,000,000 people and FCA made 6,113 Hellcat-powered cars and 3,300 Demons. Guess how many GNXs remain unsold today, and how many undriven GNXs that were sold have appreciated relative to the lack of joy they brought their owners? Feel free to extrapolate the inflation (and depression from lack of joy) over 30 years. Does anyone see the disproportionate disconnect here?

A lack of dollars and sense.

Lots of over-priced Demons still sitting around costing everyone money because of greed.

https://www.populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/1987/
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/t-type-and-turbo-t-production-numbers.278309/
https://www.hellcat.org/threads/2018-dodge-hellcat-final-production-totals-and-stats.214171/

 

[SilverBillet]

It's not like Dodge, Chrysler, FCA, whatever they're called this month has done owners any favors over the years.

2008 SRT8 Challenger - limited edition dash plaque numbered cars supposedly the ONLY year you'd see Hemi Orange - $10K+ ADM
2009 - SRT8 Challenger improved in several ways, first year of the M6, and yes.....Hemi Orange was available (I had one) and I got it for $11K off MSRP.
Folks who paid ADM = PISSED

2015 Hellcat - HUGE ADM (I personally saw people report as much as $25K)
2016 Hellcat - can't give them away. Dodge screwed the 2015 buyers by not producing all the orders placed after everyone was assured "we'll build all that we can sell". Offered vouchers to those purchasers for $5K off a 2016, but raised the price $10K. People cancelled orders, the market is flooded with the unwanted 2016 model. I bought one that had sat for 6 months on the dealer lot for $12K off MSRP and many others got some great deals.

2018 Dodge Demon - pretty impressive and ground breaking production car in my opinion. FCA played up the exclusivity of only 3300 units but pretended they'd have checks and balances in place to avoid ADM, but in the end ADM through the roof once again. Promised to be a one year and done car.
2019 Dodge Hellcat RE - not a Demon but might as well be, then comes the Chrysler buck program $1 off per HP making the RE a steal.

Now we're hearing rumor of some even more crazy car that may or may not be built. If it's crazier than the Demon, well.......

If what I've read about the C8 Vette is true then quickest/fastest will all be relative.

These cars won't be like 1970s models where kids that were in high school Dads or brothers had them and they were optioned in such a way you could have a 1 of 1 car with the nostalgia to go with it making the prices emotionally driven. Kids of today will be looking for a Tesla or Honda Civic at Barrett in 2050.

I saved this for posterity. It was a beautiful B5 Charger but I would not consider a market adjustment of any kind and I put a Hellcat out of my thoughts at the time. It was April 2015. I feel sorry for whoever bought that one! Talk about buyer’s remorse! I finally gave in almost exactly a year later when I found a new 2016 silver and red one for sticker price that I had wanted in 2015.

 

[Boris]

No more Tesla CAFE credits to buy, FCA already paid and will continue to pay penalties for not making mileage requirements (the issuing and paying of future fines is speculation in my part). FCA appears to drawing out the 2019 model year as long as they can, why do that? IMO, there is a change coming, some say good (something quicker than the Demon, I go the other direction).


On another note, are they any Hellephants in customers hands? Is the revised aluminum block available?

Didn't FCA just buy a bunch of new ZF 8 speed hybrid transmissions? I think 2020 is too early but this is coming.

I think the original plan was to beat the Demon but who knows. Will Trump enforce it? Will he even be President?

Always said when this generation dies, if Demon is still king then it will be the investment car to have along with a special trim Viper

 

[Boris]

That's a good question on the Hellephant engines. Weren't the first 100 supposed to be delivered some time back with a second round of orders opened? Hmmmmmmm.

Hellephant are crate engines and i don't believe subject to CAFE standards. Even states not to be used on emission controlled cars.

I mean i can call up and have a Sonny 1005 cubic inch Hemi crate engine built that makes 2100hp and put it into a "street" car. If he can sell them why can't Dodge?

 

[Chevyave]

I agree with some of your previous posts, but I cant agree with this one. Assume you earn 5% on your $15K per year ($750/year before taxes), I can assure you the Redeye will depreciate more than you are earning. Carry on.

That was not my point at all. My point is the resale value of my RE plus the money saved by not paying the Demon "premium" is the better value. My example of the 15K savings is based off of one forum member that "claimed" he purchased a Demon for sticker. If that is true he is one of the very few that actually paid sticker because everyone that I saw in Dallas had a 15-25K ADM and then there are the ones that sold for 150K plus. The fact of the matter is 3300 is not a very limited run and the likelihood of these cars bringing more than their original sticker price 10-years from now is highly unlikely. Cars are not an investment, especially new ones, and these debates are futile because very few of us will still own any of these cars 30-40 years from now when they might actually reach collector status.

 

[1971demon]

To further put things into perspective: In 1987 the US population was ~245,000,000 people and Buick made ~27,000 Turbo Regals and just 547 GNXs (quickest production car of its time). The US population in 2018 was ~325,000,000 people and FCA made 6,113 Hellcat-powered cars and 3,300 Demons. Guess how many GNXs remain unsold today, and how many undriven GNXs that were sold have appreciated relative to the lack of joy they brought their owners? Feel free to extrapolate the inflation (and depression from lack of joy) over 30 years. Does anyone see the disproportionate disconnect here?

A lack of dollars and sense.

Lots of over-priced Demons still sitting around costing everyone money because of greed.

https://www.populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-america/1987/
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/t-type-and-turbo-t-production-numbers.278309/
https://www.hellcat.org/threads/2018-dodge-hellcat-final-production-totals-and-stats.214171/

So I guess we gotta wait 28 more years to see how many Demons remain unsold??..and a MSRP GNX in 87??...the inflation adjusted ADM on those were insane...how do you have time to do all this mindless research ….isn't there a Hockey game on?

 

[Magnified]

I saved this for posterity. It was a beautiful B5 Charger but I would not consider a market adjustment of any kind and I put a Hellcat out of my thoughts at the time. It was April 2015. I feel sorry for whoever bought that one! Talk about buyer’s remorse! I finally gave in almost exactly a year later when I found a new 2016 silver and red one for sticker price that I had wanted in 2015. View attachment 3982 View attachment 3983

$27000... hahahahahaha.... let me get my down payment

 

[Magnified]

Hellephant are crate engines and i don't believe subject to CAFE standards. Even states not to be used on emission controlled cars.

I mean i can call up and have a Sonny 1005 cubic inch Hemi crate engine built that makes 2100hp and put it into a "street" car. If he can sell them why can't Dodge?

Warranty, potential liability (like those dumbasses that wrecked in LA and are suing the builder because they couldn't drive the car, and it had substandard safety gear), supply chain head aches, low volume, more problems (possibly) with impact on CAFE requirements (however the low head count on these cars helps lower their impact dramatically... it's not simple physics, it's just simple math...), and lastly, how many of them could they realistically sell? Would it justify the investment? Probably not.

 

[Magnified]

So I guess we gotta wait 28 more years to see how many Demons remain unsold??..and a MSRP GNX in 87??...the inflation adjusted ADM on those were insane...how do you have time to do all this mindless research ….isn't there a Hockey game on?

No Demons are unsold... FCA doesn't have any sitting the showroom. Not trying to be a wise ass, but make the point that FCA is not going to give a **** what happens to those Demons after the money changes hands. This is a business and they'd kill your children if it would move cars.

 

[1971demon]

That was not my point at all. My point is the resale value of my RE plus the money saved by not paying the Demon "premium" is the better value. My example of the 15K savings is based off of one forum member that "claimed" he purchased a Demon for sticker. If that is true he is one of the very few that actually paid sticker because everyone that I saw in Dallas had a 15-25K ADM and then there are the ones that sold for 150K plus. The fact of the matter is 3300 is not a very limited run and the likelihood of these cars bringing more than their original sticker price 10-years from now is highly unlikely. Cars are not an investment, especially new ones, and these debates are futile because very few of us will still own any of these cars 30-40 years from now when they might actually reach collector status.

I am an MSRP Demon owner..($1.00 under actually)...but your post makes me wonder just how many MSRP deals there were in 2018..an MSRP deal was a bargain...I bought it to own it..not sell it..i never speculated on resale value..and given the uncertainty of the times we live in...I don't believe any historical comparison is necessarily valid..I also bought a 2016 HC /M6 at MSRP....and with the latest incentives...financially you could say I took a f**kin..but I just don't see it that way...I bought that car to keep as well..the fun I've had the last three years has been priceless...

 

[motorhead]

So I guess we gotta wait 28 more years to see how many Demons remain unsold??..and a MSRP GNX in 87??...the inflation adjusted ADM on those were insane...how do you have time to do all this mindless research ….isn't there a Hockey game on?

Nope, the Devils are on the road and gonna curb stomp the Flyers tonight.

That said, if you cannot objectively look at this shitshow - that's your problem.

 

[camarochevy1970]

130k+
Im not sure what sticker was on them but i think they have been falling in price as well.

Total build of Vipers from 13-17 was just higher than the Demon's 3,300. ACR-E's are the baddest ones and im not sure on build numbers but its a rare beast that is never returning.
NA V10 with a manual? Toast.

right, total build on 4 years of Viper barely exceeded the Demon. That said, ACR-E's and the limited edition ones like the GTSR are holding their own value wise. An ACR-e went for $175 at Barret Jackson and I would have to look, but pretty sure I saw a gtsr go for over $200 a few months agi

 

[cole3986]

I was off, the total price of the Demon was $ 93,352 which included a $ 699.00 dealer administrative fee (not $ 95K).

Given that the drive shaft and rears are currently breaking at RE and Demon power levels, the platform is already traction limited on the street, that the LX platform is over 15 years old (or close to it), emissions headaches and is scheduled to be replaced for a number of years now, why would FCA try to make a more powerful ICE challenger work? Why spend all that money and tooling for new parts for the last year of the platform (I am speculating that 2020 will be the last year). The party never goes on forever, change to some form of hybrid is probable.

I have a 2019 crew ram 1500 with the e torque option, it is awesome, the truck gets 19+ MPG (as calculated by the computer) in horrible traffic and that system only uses a single 20 HP electric motor that sits on top of the Hemi. FCA is going in that direction, IMO,

Another sign of trouble is when the top dog (RE) is heavily discounted to move the product, bottom line challengers are not selling well at all in 2019.

 

[Markp]

2019's year-to-date figures. The Mustang takes first place with 55,365 sales, followed by the Challenger at 46,699, and the Camaro at 36,79

 

[cole3986]

2019's year-to-date figures. The Mustang takes first place with 55,365 sales, followed by the Challenger at 46,699, and the Camaro at 36,79

Mark,

How do sales in 2019 compare to 2018 & 2017 for the challenger, as of a few months ago, sales were over 25% off from the previous year.

 

[Markp]

Mark,

How do sales in 2019 compare to 2018 & 2017 for the challenger, as of a few months ago, sales were over 25% off from the previous year.

Sales Figures

2017 sales was 64537
2018 sales was 66716

 

[motorhead]

2019's year-to-date figures. The Mustang takes first place with 55,365 sales, followed by the Challenger at 46,699, and the Camaro at 36,79

I knew the Camaro was suffering - but that's awful!

 

[Boris]

Warranty, potential liability (like those dumbasses that wrecked in LA and are suing the builder because they couldn't drive the car, and it had substandard safety gear), supply chain head aches, low volume, more problems (possibly) with impact on CAFE requirements (however the low head count on these cars helps lower their impact dramatically... it's not simple physics, it's just simple math...), and lastly, how many of them could they realistically sell? Would it justify the investment? Probably not.

But does the crate engine program have any impact on CAFE numbers? If it did, and Dodge/FCA are paying for credits to avoid fines, why even make the stupid thing?

Plenty of builders can make a supercharged 426 hemi if you really had to have one.

I think Dodge played around with it, realized they couldn't get it to pass emissions and just released it as a crate engine. But thats just my guess. I would love to know the real reason they made that crate engine.