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Have you experienced the shift hiccup issue with your Redeye?

Have you experienced the shift hiccup issue with your Redeye?


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I only play on the street (for now), so I rarely every floor it in first and usually short shift first, half throttle most of second, then go to the floor at the top of second, but I haven't seen any of the issue I've been reading about and hearing in Dragrcr's video. You guys have me nervous now, and I'll have to try a little harder at the 1-2 shift once I get back home to the heifer. Hope I'm just lucky. Just finally got over 500 miles, so I put traction and trans in sport, but still haven't put anything in track yet.
 


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It ran, and ran, and ran and ran as good or better than expected. Yep, it has the strange annoying hiccups. Without WOT it can be very, very snappy and won’t do that shit at all. Ran it hard for a couple of days, it’s a brute. They are durable. I really got to play with it a lot at Road America for two days.

I believe it needs to really cool it between the shifts. It might just bust something. I busted something turning its heavy ass with the big meats. It makes a nasty pop when you really lean on it left or right, more than most would consider reasonable. :rolleyes: It was running on steroids this morning. The DA was about zero when we started. It was on excellent fuel. On the main straight coming up a hill and flat pouring it on, it would have the same farts, the one just before the crest made me wonder if it was pulling so well, it still was wanting more fuel? But when it is done farting or whatever it is spectacular. The heavy sled was keeping up just fine with all the more fancy stuff.
 


Magnified

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#23
2020
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Track and Sport
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1-2 drag strip, substantial, every pass
2-3 on street, spinning

On the street at anything less than WOT in Sport and Track it shifts really hard. I only hopeand wish it would do this on the race track @ WOT (drag strip going straight).

I honestly think they gave me the Demon Engine but forgot to account for the additional power so Torque Management is freaking out. They gave us a Demon Engine with Hellcat TCM program. Is it even possible the engineers and programmers dropped the ball on this? Why give me all this power and then NOT let it flow through the transmission? Hellcat Dan thinks they did this on purpose to allow the Demon the remain superior.
Years ago on my old SC GTO when we hit 550 HP the Torque Management had a conniption fit. We were never able to solve it even with help from GM. Unit would still shift but the traction / stability control would suicide and remain off (despite commanded restart) until the next engine start cycle.
 


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#24
It ran, and ran, and ran and ran as good or better than expected. Yep, it has the strange annoying hiccups. Without WOT it can be very, very snappy and won’t do that shit at all. Ran it hard for a couple of days, it’s a brute. They are durable. I really got to play with it a lot at Road America for two days.

I believe it needs to really cool it between the shifts. It might just bust something. I busted something turning its heavy ass with the big meats. It makes a nasty pop when you really lean on it left or right, more than most would consider reasonable. :rolleyes: It was running on steroids this morning. The DA was about zero when we started. It was on excellent fuel. On the main straight coming up a hill and flat pouring it on, it would have the same farts, the one just before the crest made me wonder if it was pulling so well, it still was wanting more fuel? But when it is done farting or whatever it is spectacular. The heavy sled was keeping up just fine with all the more fancy stuff.
What did you break? Suspension component?
 


Matt someone with an SRT

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#25
Just ran today. I can confirm this doesn’t happen in sport trans on my car. Only track mode. As soon as I put it in track and shifted at like 6-6100 it hiccuped. Did 4 runs to 100 in sport trans, street suspension and traction off.. 315/35/20 555R2.. every run in sport was clean using paddle shifters. 08465E79-C930-4381-8DA0-93C4FAA6D221.jpeg
 


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Just ran today. I can confirm this doesn’t happen in sport trans on my car. Only track mode. As soon as I put it in track and shifted at like 6-6100 it hiccuped. Did 4 runs to 100 in sport trans, street suspension and traction off.. 315/35/20 555R2.. every run in sport was clean using paddle shifters. View attachment 18365
I have used that same exact setup/scenario and mimicked those results with tranny in sport with paddles. I have 960 miles on car now since Dec. I have only put car in track mode once, but just to hear chiller come on, have not driven it more than a block or two in track under slow driving conditions. I will say when I first got car and had @500mi on it, I hammered it and it laid down real bad between shifts.(prob in Sport, I never really drive in street, even then) Now after some more miles it seems to have stopped. I do use the paddles frequently and shift fairly hard up and down. Maybe I "trained" the tranny to shift crisp?
 


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#27
What did you break? Suspension component?
I don’t think anything is “broke”. No suspension component we can see/inspect is loose or broken. Believe me every nut and bolt we can see feel or get a wrench on has been checked with the tires off. The wheels are on TIGHT. Checked and re-checked. A guy will do that before driving like we did. When I can get it up, I am looking right about in the area of the transmission mount for a loose bolt OR the flipping body is flexing! Something is making enough racket, I can splice a whole train of turns and noise together off the videos so we should be able to have a contest on a thread if I can’t find it.
 


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#28
I pulled the fuse and mine quit for awhile but is back to weird shit between 1/2.
 


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#29
I don’t think anything is “broke”. No suspension component we can see/inspect is loose or broken. Believe me every nut and bolt we can see feel or get a wrench on has been checked with the tires off. The wheels are on TIGHT. Checked and re-checked. A guy will do that before driving like we did. When I can get it up, I am looking right about in the area of the transmission mount for a loose bolt OR the flipping body is flexing! Something is making enough racket, I can splice a whole train of turns and noise together off the videos so we should be able to have a contest on a thread if I can’t find it.
Wow, if you get a chance post up some vid. If the body is flexing that's pretty amazing.
 


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#30
Wow, if you get a chance post up some vid. If the body is flexing that's pretty amazing.
I don’t know about that yet. Let me get under it first. It is too damn hot, or I would now. Thinking about how the hell something like the stock front links can exist. Those pencil thin things are attached to 1.75” of sway bar carrying 60% of 4700 lbs! But we looked at them more than once. The noise was coming from down in the sway bar connection/frame area, but I never detected any change in feedback to my butt or hands. I am going to play with some videos tonight.
 


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#31
Now that is interesting. Trying to visualize in my head and map out how that sound could be produced.
 


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#32
Years ago on my old SC GTO when we hit 550 HP the Torque Management had a conniption fit. We were never able to solve it even with help from GM. Unit would still shift but the traction / stability control would suicide and remain off (despite commanded restart) until the next engine start cycle.
For what it's worth (and that's not much since it's more than 1.5 decades out of date, when the torque management would jump in (say on WOT) the behaviour was this: WOT, speed and power build, as we reached into the 500s the trans felt like it would bog for just a second, the light that indicated torque management would flicker, and then full power would resume and the driver information display would say something like "EST disabled." EST and Traction control would remain off until you killed the car, removed the key and then restarted. Torque management would not interfere again when those two systems were disabled.
 


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Thinking about this........with it being so prevalent on many different cars, I wonder if it isn't just a "protection circuit" deal. I mean, these cars run up to redline blindly quick in the lower gears. Maybe the software is seeing how quickly it's running up towards redline, and cuts timing/fuel to keep it below that threshold? I wonder if any of the fully tuned (PCM&TCM) guys are seeing this same situation? Watching Speedys videos (I know he's ecm&at my tuned) I never hear his car acting this way, and he's never mentioned an issue. And he's running a base (but tuned) 2019 redeye file now. I wonder if raising the rev limiter in the ecm would have any effect on the situation?
 


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Thinking about this........with it being so prevalent on many different cars, I wonder if it isn't just a "protection circuit" deal. I mean, these cars run up to redline blindly quick in the lower gears. Maybe the software is seeing how quickly it's running up towards redline, and cuts timing/fuel to keep it below that threshold? I wonder if any of the fully tuned (PCM&TCM) guys are seeing this same situation? Watching Speedys videos (I know he's ecm&at my tuned) I never hear his car acting this way, and he's never mentioned an issue. And he's running a base (but tuned) 2019 redeye file now. I wonder if raising the rev limiter in the ecm would have any effect on the situation?
Now you got it. It's the rev limiter anticipating, or torque management limiting the power during the shift. If it is the rev limiter then someone did not do their job right. They have the car right on the ragged edge and in my case I have a "good" engine (based on the mph) so the car is freaking out. Same with torque management. If one car is making more power then torque management will step in more violently.

If it's rev limit, why not command the shift 200 rpm earlier? I guarantee that 200 rpm earlier without the hiccup will be faster. 100% . . . .If it is torque management then why can the Demon transfer 959 foot pounds of torque on the 1-2 shift and the RedEye can only transfer 339 foot pounds on the 1-2 shift? It's the same hardware, right? WTF?
 


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Torque management, I could see. But I don't think it's THE rev limiter........I think it's the computer doing this to AVOID the rev limiter. Meaning, to slow engine acceleration down BEFORE it bounces off the rev limiter, because it sees the parameters heading towards the max rpm/rev limit point like a rocket ship. Think about trying to do the 1-2 shift manually, right at 6100-6200 rpm.........things are happening so fast (microseconds) that you're all but guaranteed to bounce the heifer off the rev limiter. As far as torque management goes, if THAT is what this situation is........my 1997 vortec pickup is programmed to cut torque back by like 15% just during the shift itself, to protect the weak 4l60 trans. The demon was designed, touted, advertised, and sold AS americas only ever production drag race car. And it's warranted on the track. Imagine what cutting torque during shifts would have done to it........would have killed that advertised 9.65 quarter mile. The redeye is advertised as a fast/fun car......but not a race car. And it's not warranted on any track. Nor were they AS concerned with it putting up the lowest quarter mile time they could, like they were with the demon. So maybe they were a little more cautious with the programming and engine safety measures?

All of this would be very easy to quantify (easy for guys smarter than me, anyhow) with data logging. Get with someone like speedy on which pids he wants to see, and setup an hp tuners data logging system in a redeye and a demon. Then make passes the same way in both cars and send him the files to see what's happening in the redeye that's clearly NOT happening in the demon.
 


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#36
Well I just installed my smart access cable and took a couple quick highway pulls data logging with HP Tuners. Now I just need to be able to log the correct data (I'm new to data logging, lol), and get my Redeye to the track to see if I'm getting the 1-2 hiccup and if so what is causing it. If anyone has any suggestions of specific channels I should add for the 1-2 shift datalog please let me know. I had STKR and LTKR added, but either I'm not seeing any knock (93 pump gas) or it's not recording it. Can't quite tell. Please note, my ECU is stock and locked (as it should be for this test).
 


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#37
2020
NBRE
3.09
315/50R17 ET STREET R
Track and Sport
WOT
1-2 drag strip, substantial, every pass
2-3 on street, spinning

On the street at anything less than WOT in Sport and Track it shifts really hard. I only hopeand wish it would do this on the race track @ WOT (drag strip going straight).

I honestly think they gave me the Demon Engine but forgot to account for the additional power so Torque Management is freaking out. They gave us a Demon Engine with Hellcat TCM program. Is it even possible the engineers and programmers dropped the ball on this? Why give me all this power and then NOT let it flow through the transmission? Hellcat Dan thinks they did this on purpose to allow the Demon the remain superior.
Ron since you brought up the Demon....I have not heard this issue for any Demons (including mine). That said you raced yours hard for a year plus and ran with many other Demons. Does the Demon in fact have a different TCM program (ie documented as such somewhere)? If it burps on 1-2, 2-3 etc AT WOT all the time, this is not a MINOR deal....FCA better fix it or RE racers will revolt (rightfully so!)
 


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DRAGRCR

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#38
Ron since you brought up the Demon....I have not heard this issue for any Demons (including mine). That said you raced yours hard for a year plus and ran with many other demons. is this specific to the RedEye? Does the Demon in fact have a different TCM program (ie documented as such somewhere)? If it burps on 1-2 all the time, this is not a MINOR deal....FCA better fix it or RE racers will revolt (rightfully so!)
Yes a lot of the Demons would hiccup on the shifts. But it's more of a rev limit anticipation because it's spinning. So it will vary with track prep and tires. In January at Houston I heard a lot of Demons hiccup on the shifts. I watched car after car do it. But many were running the nittos. I have also heard some go down the track without hiccups and Chirp, Chirp, Chirp, and even chirp going into 5th. Absolutely the Demon has a different program. All the media releases described the differences. They slowed the shifts down from 90 milliseconds to 140 and they delayed converter lockup, they shift harder and so on. The Demon seemed to have more or maybe more refined adaptives. So it seems a lot would hiccup and then eventually they would fine tune the shifts and stop doing it. It can be confusing because down track prep can greatly affect this. There have been times the car was screwing up big time and the next week it was perfect. That confirms track prep is the issue. I was having a really hard time in January at Extreme Raceway Park and I was certain there was something wrong with the car. It took a whole night of frustration to finally figure out it was track prep. I finally had a run later that night where they prepped the track right in front of me and then let me run a single. I think Demonology set that up for me maybe. Well, the car laid down a 6.16 on that pass. Problem solved. The next week at Houston I ran the 9.55 and that was a smooth uneventful pass. You almost would not know it. The week before I ran 143 twice at Dallas / Ennis. But when I got to Legions / Houston the Da was really good and the car started hiccuping again on almost every pass. I fought it all weekend and it never made a good pass in the low DA . I was pissed because those Guys beat my time and the car was not working right. And I know the prep was on point and the conditions were better than when I ran the 9.55. I had access the the very best track conditions. Period. What I believe was happening was I had the Hoosiers and Win Lites on the car. The Hoosiers were considerably lighter and they were shorter @ 28". Then in the -1200 to -1400 DA the car started anticipating an overrev on every run. That new setup combined with the exceptional DA was too much. I finally did a Capactive Discharge on the last Day, Monday at Lunch time. That started the car out fresh and then it could learn that new setup without any previous learned data. Then between 1:30 and 3:30 with -500 DA and the track prep going away (they refused to prep the track any more) I made 8 passes. It only hiccuped once and that was appropriate with the track conditions. So, 1 hiccup in 8 runs after having done it on every run that morning. It put up a 9.59, 9.60, 9.65, 9.63, 9.63, 9.62, 9.65 . During those runs it actually spun on 2 runs when it locked the converter but no hiccup. That morning in -1200 to -1400 DA the best it ran was a 9.68. So dissappointing.

My Redeye is not spinning. Track prep and tires were on point. So it's torque management or the fact that I took some weight out combined with a strong motor causing an overrev anticipation. But my car is not that light. And it came from Dodge with a rear seat delete. Plus it hiccupped the same every time. I would think at least a couple of the 9 runs I made last time out would be clean if it was track prep. It does have quite a bit taller tires that would mitigate an overrev anticipation some. I cannot stress this enough. This car has a Demon motor but shifts like a Hellcat. I really think they screwed this up or maybe they went all Ricky Bobby on the Torque management to save warranty claims. My Hellcat did not do this, and for the most part my Demon did not do this. The Demon had 674 runs on it and I bet 90% of them were perfect if not amazing. And the times that it did hiccup were valid and I know why it was doing it. I bet this RedEye will do this on every run from now on.

I also will point out that the RedEyes doing this on the street is most likely overrev anticipation due to traction loss. I consider that somewhat normal and that does not concern me. But I have to wonder with @DGatzby road racing if the tires eventually warm up enough to grip. Not sure if his car should or should not be doing this road racing. If it shifted hard with no hiccup @ WOT I wonder if it would just jump into stability control intervention. I have had older automatic cars that would shift hard and they would drift like a MoFo when shifting at WOT when turning. Ask me how I know :rolleyes:

I did specifically tell that FCA Rep that they should just load the Demon Transmission Calibration in my car and be done with it. It would Frikkin Haul Ass.

.
 


coolblue

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#39
Yes a lot of the Demons would hiccup on the shifts. But it's more of a rev limit anticipation because it's spinning. So it will vary with track prep and tires. In January at Houston I heard a lot of Demons hiccup on the shifts. I watched car after car do it. But many were running the nittos. I have also heard some go down the track without hiccups and Chirp, Chirp, Chirp, and even chirp going into 5th. Absolutely the Demon has a different program. All the media releases described the differences. They slowed the shifts down from 90 milliseconds to 140 and they delayed converter lockup, they shift harder and so on. The Demon seemed to have more or maybe more refined adaptives. So it seems a lot would hiccup and then eventually they would fine tune the shifts and stop doing it. It can be confusing because down track prep can greatly affect this. There have been times the car was screwing up big time and the next week it was perfect. That confirms track prep is the issue. I was having a really hard time in January at Extreme Raceway Park and I was certain there was something wrong with the car. It took a whole night of frustration to finally figure out it was track prep. I finally had a run later that night where they prepped the track right in front of me and then let me run a single. I think Demonology set that up for me maybe. Well, the car laid down a 6.16 on that pass. Problem solved. The next week at Houston I ran the 9.55 and that was a smooth uneventful pass. You almost would not know it. The week before I ran 143 twice at Dallas / Ennis. But when I got to Legions / Houston the Da was really good and the car started hiccuping again on almost every pass. I fought it all weekend and it never made a good pass in the low DA . I was pissed because those Guys beat my time and the car was not working right. And I know the prep was on point and the conditions were better than when I ran the 9.55. I had access the the very best track conditions. Period. What I believe was happening was I had the Hoosiers and Win Lites on the car. The Hoosiers were considerably lighter and they were shorter @ 28". Then in the -1200 to -1400 DA the car started anticipating an overrev on every run. That new setup combined with the exceptional DA was too much. I finally did a Capactive Discharge on the last Day, Monday at Lunch time. That started the car out fresh and then it could learn that new setup without any previous learned data. Then between 1:30 and 3:30 with -500 DA and the track prep going away (they refused to prep the track any more) I made 8 passes. It only hiccuped once and that was appropriate with the track conditions. So, 1 hiccup in 8 runs after having done it on every run that morning. It put up a 9.59, 9.60, 9.65, 9.63, 9.63, 9.62, 9.65 . During those runs it actually spun on 2 runs when it locked the converter but no hiccup. That morning in -1200 to -1400 DA the best it ran was a 9.68. So dissappointing.

My Redeye is not spinning. Track prep and tires were on point. So it's torque management or the fact that I took some weight out combined with a strong motor causing an overrev anticipation. But my car is not that light. And it came from Dodge with a rear seat delete. Plus it hiccupped the same every time. I would think at least a couple of the 9 runs I made last time out would be clean if it was track prep. It does have quite a bit taller tires that would mitigate an overrev anticipation some. I cannot stress this enough. This car has a Demon motor but shifts like a Hellcat. I really think they screwed this up or maybe they went all Ricky Bobby on the Torque management to save warranty claims. My Hellcat did not do this, and for the most part my Demon did not do this. The Demon had 674 runs on it and I bet 90% of them were perfect if not amazing. And the times that it did hiccup were valid and I know why it was doing it. I bet this RedEye will do this on every run from now on.

I also will point out that the RedEyes doing this on the street is most likely overrev anticipation due to traction loss. I consider that somewhat normal and that does not concern me. But I have to wonder with @DGatzby road racing if the tires eventually warm up enough to grip. Not sure if his car should or should not be doing this road racing. If it shifted hard with no hiccup @ WOT I wonder if it would just jump into stability control intervention. I have had older automatic cars that would shift hard and they would drift like a MoFo when shifting at WOT when turning. Ask me how I know :rolleyes:

I did specifically tell that FCA Rep that they should just load the Demon Transmission Calibration in my car and be done with it. It would Frikkin Haul Ass.

.
I heard/read in a @hellno post (He swapped his out for a Demon converter....and he has some small knowledge on tranny's. LOL.) the trannys were mechanically identical except for the converters. The Demon supposedly has a looser converter, so even if they put the Demon calibration in the RE tranny would the converter lock-up difference effect anything?
 


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2019 Dodge Challenger Redeye WB
#40
Yes a lot of the Demons would hiccup on the shifts. But it's more of a rev limit anticipation because it's spinning. So it will vary with track prep and tires. In January at Houston I heard a lot of Demons hiccup on the shifts. I watched car after car do it. But many were running the nittos. I have also heard some go down the track without hiccups and Chirp, Chirp, Chirp, and even chirp going into 5th. Absolutely the Demon has a different program. All the media releases described the differences. They slowed the shifts down from 90 milliseconds to 140 and they delayed converter lockup, they shift harder and so on. The Demon seemed to have more or maybe more refined adaptives. So it seems a lot would hiccup and then eventually they would fine tune the shifts and stop doing it. It can be confusing because down track prep can greatly affect this. There have been times the car was screwing up big time and the next week it was perfect. That confirms track prep is the issue. I was having a really hard time in January at Extreme Raceway Park and I was certain there was something wrong with the car. It took a whole night of frustration to finally figure out it was track prep. I finally had a run later that night where they prepped the track right in front of me and then let me run a single. I think Demonology set that up for me maybe. Well, the car laid down a 6.16 on that pass. Problem solved. The next week at Houston I ran the 9.55 and that was a smooth uneventful pass. You almost would not know it. The week before I ran 143 twice at Dallas / Ennis. But when I got to Legions / Houston the Da was really good and the car started hiccuping again on almost every pass. I fought it all weekend and it never made a good pass in the low DA . I was pissed because those Guys beat my time and the car was not working right. And I know the prep was on point and the conditions were better than when I ran the 9.55. I had access the the very best track conditions. Period. What I believe was happening was I had the Hoosiers and Win Lites on the car. The Hoosiers were considerably lighter and they were shorter @ 28". Then in the -1200 to -1400 DA the car started anticipating an overrev on every run. That new setup combined with the exceptional DA was too much. I finally did a Capactive Discharge on the last Day, Monday at Lunch time. That started the car out fresh and then it could learn that new setup without any previous learned data. Then between 1:30 and 3:30 with -500 DA and the track prep going away (they refused to prep the track any more) I made 8 passes. It only hiccuped once and that was appropriate with the track conditions. So, 1 hiccup in 8 runs after having done it on every run that morning. It put up a 9.59, 9.60, 9.65, 9.63, 9.63, 9.62, 9.65 . During those runs it actually spun on 2 runs when it locked the converter but no hiccup. That morning in -1200 to -1400 DA the best it ran was a 9.68. So dissappointing.

My Redeye is not spinning. Track prep and tires were on point. So it's torque management or the fact that I took some weight out combined with a strong motor causing an overrev anticipation. But my car is not that light. And it came from Dodge with a rear seat delete. Plus it hiccupped the same every time. I would think at least a couple of the 9 runs I made last time out would be clean if it was track prep. It does have quite a bit taller tires that would mitigate an overrev anticipation some. I cannot stress this enough. This car has a Demon motor but shifts like a Hellcat. I really think they screwed this up or maybe they went all Ricky Bobby on the Torque management to save warranty claims. My Hellcat did not do this, and for the most part my Demon did not do this. The Demon had 674 runs on it and I bet 90% of them were perfect if not amazing. And the times that it did hiccup were valid and I know why it was doing it. I bet this RedEye will do this on every run from now on.

I also will point out that the RedEyes doing this on the street is most likely overrev anticipation due to traction loss. I consider that somewhat normal and that does not concern me. But I have to wonder with @DGatzby road racing if the tires eventually warm up enough to grip. Not sure if his car should or should not be doing this road racing. If it shifted hard with no hiccup @ WOT I wonder if it would just jump into stability control intervention. I have had older automatic cars that would shift hard and they would drift like a MoFo when shifting at WOT when turning. Ask me how I know :rolleyes:

I did specifically tell that FCA Rep that they should just load the Demon Transmission Calibration in my car and be done with it. It would Frikkin Haul Ass.

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Hello, Ron. With 345/30-20 Cup 2’s on the rear, generally traction is not an issue. They heat up and work as good as can be expected. The interesting part is they have several days on them and they look nearly new! Never seen a HC rear tires out live a front set. But I already have the next set of fronts in the garage! It continued to have this fart btw shifts on Sunday on the big straights, but as I got closer to the action (more familiar with this track) it performs along side Z06’s, maybe even better depending on the speeds and other factors on the acceleration parts of the course, even the units where they have a couple bolt-ons and excellent fuel. So even with the annoying pause or hiccup; whatever we call it, it is tough to complain that it is not performing to expectations acceleration wise on a road course. While I don’t need it snapping and barking from 1 thru 5th, it would be nice to have a bit of a smoother transition between gears. I don’t generally need it much different, because at one spot on RA it did require holding the gear manually so it would not upset itself on the ragged edge of traction with a shift. I am practicing that technique because as goofy as it sounds BIR has one big corner where I am going to be holding the #6 for a few seconds!
 




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