Whipple Hellcats/Redeyes/Demons

[Marc W]

All I have is a 1.25 gallon tank and Killer Chiller. I was going to enhance my setup with a trunk tank with more capacity or a 2nd Killer Chiller core but since what I have is working for me, I'm going to leave well enough alone.

I have the 7 gallon EMP ice tank in the trunk. My observation is that the chiller works better when there is a little less than half tank in that thing. Too much coolant and it looks like the chiller can't do much with all that volume. It cools down a lot quicker when there is less. When I went to the chiller I was thinking that I'd spent my last dollar on ice. lol Wishful thinking! My procedure now (subject to change) is about two inches of water in the tank so the pick-up is covered and let the car idle long enough to see temps drop. That way the system is already cool. Then before making a run, I fill the tank with ice and within about two/three minutes the IC temps are in the high 30's and with the chiller working with that full tank of ice water..... letting the car idle in staging keeps it frosty. Of coarse then a Mustang crashes on the track and I have to shut it down for clean up and just sit there shaking my head while the temps go up. That's drag racing...

 

[WhipCat]

The chillers are very effective.

I just checked my datalogs from my recent half mile on the 4.5 “ pulley.

Without the chiller or ice we were 180 plus IAT and SC intercooler temps were way up over 120

With ice the IAT was around 150-160

With the chiller installed IAT on the top of the pull was at 131 degrees. Huge improvement with the chiller.

SC intercooler temps stay at no more than 105 degrees during the entire pull.

These are half mile pulls. So much longer with more heat.

 

[Marc W]

The chillers are very effective.

I just checked my datalogs from my recent half mile on the 4.5 “ pulley.

Without the chiller or ice we were 180 plus IAT and SC intercooler temps were way up over 120

With ice the IAT was around 150-160

With the chiller installed IAT on the top of the pull was at 131 degrees. Huge improvement with the chiller.

SC intercooler temps stay at no more than 105 degrees during the entire pull.

These are half mile pulls. So much longer with more heat.

My observation is that the combination of the two is the ticket with these big superchargers. The interchiller by itself with just a couple gallons on the street will give you cooler temps than not having it. That means increased performance when you need it. But for full on competition where keeping the IAT below the 150 degree point at wot (where you are going to start loosing timing before you get to the finish line) ... you need ice too. That may not be the case when it’s cold out but I haven’t been able to run the car below 90 degrees yet so I don’t know about that.

 

[WhipCat]

My observation is that the combination of the two is the ticket with these big superchargers. The interchiller by itself with just a couple gallons on the street will give you cooler temps than not having it. That means increased performance when you need it. But for full on competition where keeping the IAT below the 150 degree point at wot (where you are going to start loosing timing before you get to the finish line) ... you need ice too. That may not be the case when it’s cold out but I haven’t been able to run the car below 90 degrees yet so I don’t know about that.

We just ran this event. No ice, and temps never went past 131.

We had one spike temp to 138 and that’s it.

I think I could drop a gallon out of the tank and test again.

 

[Primetime Hellcat 17]

@zhc - am I reading those graphs properly? Not sure I can extrapolate that if the ambient was the same for both blowers that the delta would get better or worse... Over time it looks like the IHI actually reaches some sort of equilibrium whereas the Whipple just keeps getting hotter.

If not excessive heat with the IHI, why go with the Whipple at all? I thought I read that the single largest limiting factor forcing people to go to bigger blowers was the very high temps when the blower is overspun. I don't think I'm seeing that in the data - at all. Is that possible?

Jack I’m looking for abit more power and room to grow in the future. I’m pretty maxed out on my stock blower. You gotta admit the Whipple looks sexy as hell. Give it some time.... I think the 426/ Whipple combo might be getting some attention with ZHC in the 8’s . The word is out if you can put that power to the ground. Marc is so close to be in the 8’s very soon. I’m not in the big time yet. This is just a badass street set up til I learn how to handle the power & learn from all of you guys.
Question is why stick with such a small blower like the 2.4L when your pushing 1000rwhp with a larger displacement like the 426? Why not upgrade?
Just curious

 

[zhc]

@Jack_Toepfer Hmm, there's a lot to unpack from your comments and questions but I'll give it a shot. Firstly, I updated my graphs with extended notes which should help clarify some things, or maybe create more confusion.

If not excessive heat with the IHI, why go with the Whipple at all? I thought I read that the single largest limiting factor forcing people to go to bigger blowers was the very high temps when the blower is overspun. I don't think I'm seeing that in the data - at all. Is that possible?

Like you, I've read the same thing but I think it's a misconception or misinterpretation of what's happening and lack of knowledge of available options to mitigate the heat or unwillingness to enhance the intercooler setup. The act of compressing air is what generates the majority of all that heat so it makes sense that we get more heat with any PD blower the higher we go in boost. There isn't near enough focus on mitigating the heat as there should be. Why is that? Perhaps it's a secret or maybe there's just been too many failed attempts mixed in with successful ones of ice tank, chiller, or combination setups. Or maybe it's just too much effort? I dunno, but at this stage in the game, you have to be willing to face these issues and come up with strategies to mitigate against them.

@zhc - am I reading those graphs properly? Not sure I can extrapolate that if the ambient was the same for both blowers that the delta would get better or worse... Over time it looks like the IHI actually reaches some sort of equilibrium whereas the Whipple just keeps getting hotter.

There are too may changing variables to draw anything but the most simplest conclusions here. The one that I'm comfortable with is whatever heat these PD blowers generate can be mitigated with supplemental cooling from either ice tank, killer chiller, or some combination setup. I'm getting similar IAT's now with the Whipple as I did before when I had my over spun IHI and that's all thanks to how efficient my Killer Chiller setup is. I'm not sure if I'll see even lower IAT's when it gets colder but it does look like it based on my Dyno pulls. I'll find out in the next couple months.

 

[Marc W]

We just ran this event. No ice, and temps never went past 131.

We had one spike temp to 138 and that’s it.

I think I could drop a gallon out of the tank and test again.

Interesting. I haven’t actually run it with just the low level in the tank. I was guessing that it wouldn’t be enough volume for the full half mile. I definitely should do that. Let the chiller get it down as low as it goes and see if it keeps it below 150 in the quarter. It sure would be nice to not need that stuff.

 

[zhc]

Interesting. I haven’t actually run it with just the low level in the tank. I was guessing that it wouldn’t be enough volume for the full half mile. I definitely should do that. Let the chiller get it down as low as it goes and see if it keeps it below 150 in the quarter. It sure would be nice to not need that stuff.

Generally, it takes twice as long to chill with each doubling of capacity. Example, 2 gallons will take twice as long as 1. 4 gallons will take twice as long as 2. 7 gallons takes almost twice as long as 4. It's not perfectly like that because of other dynamic factors but it should give you an idea.

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

@Primetime Hellcat 17 - not trying to bash the Whipple at all, and I think for a stroker it makes perfect sense.
Really what I’m trying to figure out is exactly what @zhc elaborated on... the IHI isn’t horrible, and heat is heat is heat. The Whipple shines and with improved cooling both blowers will see significant improvement. The notes he added to the graphs help a ton! It’s all in the context. Staging lanes will make or break you. Only 1 Charger has run 8s and it was wearing a Whipple... can’t take anything away from that.

FWIW - I’m a turbo guy... and I think eventually someone on here will get serious with a set of twins and set the world on fire...

Excellent thread with excellent info - carry on boys!

 

[zhc]

Only 1 Charger has run 8s and it was wearing a Whipple...

There's one other Hellcat Charger that has run an 8.944, the blue Omega hellcat one with stock block, stock IHI 2.65 upper/lower and a 200 shot. His race weight was 4300 which is about 80 lbs heavier than me when I ran my 8.90 and his DA was around 900 vs my 2400. Awesome accomplishment but let's not derail the thread here from the topic of Whipple. I just wanted to point that out real quick.

 

[Primetime Hellcat 17]

Ok new topic.....
So at point do you upgrade heads?
1000rwhp, 1100rwhp,1150rwhp plus?
20 plus psi, 25 plus psi?
Stock heads are pretty strong until what power levels.
If I start out with the 4.75 and learn the car then go to a smaller pulley then upgrade heads?
Just curious what you guys are doing.
Everyone with a Whipple with the 426 has upgraded to the Thitek ‘s heads to my knowledge.
My engine builder says stock heads are good to go on the 4.75.
What do you guys think?

 

[Hellion]

I have stock ported heads. The cam is what will make the difference for you.

 

[Primetime Hellcat 17]

I have stock ported heads. The cam is what will make the difference for you.

In witch way? I did upgrade springs and lifters. I also upgraded to the inconel exhaust valves .
It’s just my OCD lol. Spending all this money I don’t want to skip out on anything you know.

 

[ptlawn]

I don’t have a cat but have a scatpak with a 6.2 based 426 from better built. 4.5 whipple. I’m running the 3.75 pulley. I believe this is because I have the twin 71 throttle body. If I had the bigger one I think I would be on a 4.0 pulley. The car is strong. Fore dual 485s,ID1700. Car drives like a stock car. Satera tuned

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

I don’t have a cat but have a scatpak with a 6.2 based 426 from better built. 4.5 whipple. I’m running the 3.75 pulley. I believe this is because I have the twin 71 throttle body. If I had the bigger one I think I would be on a 4.0 pulley. The car is strong. Fore dual 485s,ID1700. Car drives like a stock car. Satera tuned

What's it run?

 

[Hellion]

In witch way? I did upgrade springs and lifters. I also upgraded to the inconel exhaust valves .
It’s just my OCD lol. Spending all this money I don’t want to skip out on anything you know.

The cam tells the motor when and how to breath. If you have to much overlap on the cam it will bleed off boost. Most of the aftermarket cam's I have looked into doesn't give you any extra performance over the factory cam. Only a couple seem to produce a little extra power. Just make sure whoever you go with to spec the cam has knowledge in the field of cams.

 

[Marc W]

The cam tells the motor when and how to breath. If you have to much overlap on the cam it will bleed off boost. Most of the aftermarket cam's I have looked into doesn't give you any extra performance over the factory cam. Only a couple seem to produce a little extra power. Just make sure whoever you go with to spec the cam has knowledge in the field of cams.

Correct. That is why when you have a engine built by a knowledgeable builder like Alex at BBP, you get a matching set of parts that are suited to work with each other. The cams used are specifically for the combination you are building. A supercharged stroker gets a cam that will work with that spec. He has cam profiles for his supercharged Hellcat builds that are from mild and easy to tune for the street to cranky but still streetable, to you don’t want it for anything but the drag strip. They are not just a off the shelf guess from a cam manufacturer.

 

[Primetime Hellcat 17]

The cam tells the motor when and how to breath. If you have to much overlap on the cam it will bleed off boost. Most of the aftermarket cam's I have looked into doesn't give you any extra performance over the factory cam. Only a couple seem to produce a little extra power. Just make sure whoever you go with to spec the cam has knowledge in the field of cams.

Thanks Hellion..
I have a nasty cam from Alex at Better Built Performance.

 

[Primetime Hellcat 17]

Correct. That is why when you have a engine built by a knowledgeable builder like Alex at BBP, you get a matching set of parts that are suited to work with each other. The cams used are specifically for the combination you are building. A supercharged stroker gets a cam that will work with that spec. He has cam profiles for his supercharged Hellcat builds that are from mild and easy to tune for the street to cranky but still streetable, to you don’t want it for anything but the drag strip. They are not just a off the shelf guess from a cam manufacturer.

Hey Marc I took back off my mid mufflers! Now you can here that nasty cam again.

 

[Hellion]

That sounds great!!!!!! I like a little chop chop with my cam. Unfortunately I bought one of the first cams out from one of the hellcat sponsors on here and it doesn't really have any chop.