Those running flex fuel get in here :)

[curt_dusterhofftuning]

Thanks Curt for getting involved with this conversation and giving a direct answer. You talk plainly and not from an ivory tower. That should, and is, respected..... But, your known to pal around with @hellno...that I'm not to sure about. . Thanks again.

Don't get me wrong, there are without a doubt some limitations to the inferred flex logic. It's highly dependant on fuel trim feedback which means several things have to be right for it to work properly. The most important of which is that your injector data and fueling calculations be right before you start using the inferred logic or it will skew the readings. Also, a lot of the larger injectors make it more difficult because they are just not linear below 1ms which can cause issues at idle and cruise and skew the %. I don't plan on it being more accurate than within 10%, it usually is but I try to account for that variance. Anyone who has extensive experience in tuning ethanol will know that 10% really isn't a lot. From e75 to e85 there are very negligible differences.

David is one of the best customers and business partnerships I have made in this industry. The guy can build one heck of a trans and he's a pleasure to work with. The guy sure does talk a lot of shit though.

 

[curt_dusterhofftuning]

There is an actual innovative gauge in the car, but content is displayed via IAT on u-connect if the customer wants. IAT is not lost, just swapped is all.

Are you 100% sure of this? Where is it swapped to? have you actually logged the car since doing it and seen iat2 and recorded it pulling spark due to intake air temp?

 

[Jungle Cat]

If I could buy straight gasoline I would. I prefer my corn on the cob with butter and salt. Those of us who store for the winter know better. Too each his own.

 

[Jungle Cat]

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_fuel_disadvantages.html

 

[Speedy!]

Great info @curt_dusterhofftuning and @FFBOS.

Today's testing went awesome and I'm starting to like this more and more. I'm still only at E57 according to the logs. We're up 3deg of timing vs the 93 timing map and zero STKR anywhere. The car seems to really like it as well, you can kinda "feel" when it's making power if you know what I'm talking about.

Today was 51 deg F, and very dense cool air. I was seeing the highest aircharge readings in my logs that I've ever seen, 1900+ and 2.20 pratio, about 17.5psi of boost. I did a WOT hit up to 6350 and the ID1000s are hanging in there. 71% DC, 76% fuel pump DC, and 82psi fuel pressure.

Curt, Mike has mentioned a couple of times now that the trims need to be dialed in as that is one of the variables used to determine the ethanol content, thanks for confirming. I had some time last summer as I was learning tuning and started really focusing on my fuel trims and have them pretty close I think on 93. They were 1-3%.

 

[FFBOS]

Are you 100% sure of this? Where is it swapped to? have you actually logged the car since doing it and seen iat2 and recorded it pulling spark due to intake air temp?

I'm 110% sure

 

[fubar569]

Great info @curt_dusterhofftuning and @FFBOS.

Today's testing went awesome and I'm starting to like this more and more. I'm still only at E57 according to the logs. We're up 3deg of timing vs the 93 timing map and zero STKR anywhere. The car seems to really like it as well, you can kinda "feel" when it's making power if you know what I'm talking about.

Today was 51 deg F, and very dense cool air. I was seeing the highest aircharge readings in my logs that I've ever seen, 1900+ and 2.20 pratio, about 17.5psi of boost. I did a WOT hit up to 6350 and the ID1000s are hanging in there. 71% DC, 76% fuel pump DC, and 82psi fuel pressure.

Curt, Mike has mentioned a couple of times now that the trims need to be dialed in as that is one of the variables used to determine the ethanol content, thanks for confirming. I had some time last summer as I was learning tuning and started really focusing on my fuel trims and have them pretty close I think on 93. They were 1-3%.

OMG YOU NEED 1200/1300/1700 INJECTORS BEFORE YOU KILLZ DE MOTORZ! ALL DA TUNAH SAID SOEZ!!

 

[Speedy!]

More testing today, a tick or two more timing added and starting to play with things called blend factors. Neat stuff but I'm still trying to understand how the math works on the back end. Cold start and hot start appear to be sorted and are as good or better than stock.

Today I ran the car out to 6500 PRM to test the injectors. Still at E57. Made 17.5psi boost, 1900 aircharge, 2.20 pratio, Inj DC was 72% max, so still hanging in there. Fuel pump DC was 76% and 82psi fuel pressure. So far so good. This thing is more thirsty these days so next test I'll be adding in more E85 pump gas bringing the alcohol % up. I'm waiting to hear back from Mike how much to add in, but that'll be the real test in the injectors I think.

 

[hellno]

More testing today, a tick or two more timing added and starting to play with things called blend factors. Neat stuff but I'm still trying to understand how the math works on the back end. Cold start and hot start appear to be sorted and are as good or better than stock.

Today I ran the car out to 6500 PRM to test the injectors. Still at E57. Made 17.5psi boost, 1900 aircharge, 2.20 pratio, Inj DC was 72% max, so still hanging in there. Fuel pump DC was 76% and 82psi fuel pressure. So far so good. This thing is more thirsty these days so next test I'll be adding in more E85 pump gas bringing the alcohol % up. I'm waiting to hear back from Mike how much to add in, but that'll be the real test in the injectors I think.

@Speedy! WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE 😎

 

[fubar569]

Caught it on a high bounce. It's been hovering around 9.1 or 9.2 for the majority of this trip. That's how you know the good sauce is in the tank.

Cruise set at 65 and yes it's 30 degrees and snowing on I-79 right now

Full send.

 

[SublimeIsLife]

Anyone have any experience with keeping E85 in their tank for long periods of time? I'm out of town for work 3 months at a time and I plan to convert to E85 the next time I'm home, as well as doing 2.72/10% combo

 

[hellno]

View attachment 15970

Caught it on a high bounce. It's been hovering around 9.1 or 9.2 for the majority of this trip. That's how you know the good sauce is in the tank.

Cruise set at 65 and yes it's 30 degrees and snowing on I-79 right now

Full send.

That’s great racing weather 😂

 

[Speedy!]

Anyone have any experience with keeping E85 in their tank for long periods of time? I'm out of town for work 3 months at a time and I plan to convert to E85 the next time I'm home, as well as doing 2.72/10% combo

This is one of the reasons I wanted to do the flex setup, you can just switch back and forth as needed. I'd not leave E85 in the tank for a long time personally.

That brings up another question, any other maintenance items that change when running ethanol? I mean real documented stuff like flex fuel vehicle owner's manuals suggesting more frequent oil changes or something?

 

[hellno]

This is one of the reasons I wanted to do the flex setup, you can just switch back and forth as needed. I'd not leave E85 in the tank for a long time personally.

That brings up another question, any other maintenance items that change when running ethanol? I mean real documented stuff like flex fuel vehicle owner's manuals suggesting more frequent oil changes or something?

I’m don’t know what your full plan at the track is @Speedy! but when I race mine on the weekends
I always change the oil and filter afterwards, it may sound like overkill but because of the strong smell of ethanol in it , I believe it’s money well spent
If I’m not racing it I change it every 3,000

 

[Speedy!]

This is mainly a street setup for me. I plan to continue using the Renegade RM109 at the track with a dedicated race tune for that fuel.

 

[MaxCarnage]

@Speedy!

I noticed a couple times you seemed to have mentioned that after about E50+ the gains aren't as great to E85 as they are initially. I've seen others post that as well. However, I've seen Tim Barth via FB post quite a few results that seem to show nice gains to E85, from a lower level of E.

Example post:

800hp Performance Package - Flex Fuel Tune - 2016 Hellcat
93 - 743whp
E60 - 804whp
E85 - 843whp
NO tune changes, just fuel change for a 100whp gain!

So according to that, you'd be leaving about half your possible gains on the table if you only went to E50. Just curious on yours and others thoughts on this as well.

I'm waiting for either Curt or Tim/Satera's flex tune to be ready remotely. Otherwise I'd have to ship my car up to one of them. At this point I'm also trying to see if either Curt's FF or Satera's FF has any advantages or disadvantages over another. One advantage is price for Curt's FF. I know he mentioned that Ford and Dodge use wideband for FF, and I believe that Chevy is the one that uses a FF sensor, like Satera's method. I have seen the readout display with Satera's method via performance gauges (I do like that). Mostly I'd like to know which method if any is more accurate and which of the two has a faster response time to +/-E% changes. Overall is one more safe than other.

 

[MaxCarnage]

This is mainly a street setup for me. I plan to continue using the Renegade RM109 at the track with a dedicated race tune for that fuel.

Won't you make more power on a FF vs Renegade RM109 though?

 

[MaxCarnage]

I’m don’t know what your full plan at the track is @Speedy! but when I race mine on the weekends
I always change the oil and filter afterwards, it may sound like overkill but because of the strong smell of ethanol in it , I believe it’s money well spent
If I’m not racing it I change it every 3,000

I've heard people mention to change the oil more often. I often hear 3,000 miles or so. However, what if you don't do lots of driving (like me)? Is there is a length of time recommendation? That might depend on usage of ethanol. I personally plan on racing on FF (or getting a dedicated E85 tune for just racing).

 

[hellno]

@Speedy!

I noticed a couple times you seemed to have mentioned that after about E50+ the gains aren't as great to E85 as they are initially. I've seen others post that as well. However, I've seen Tim Barth via FB post quite a few results that seem to show nice gains to E85, from a lower level of E.

Example post:

800hp Performance Package - Flex Fuel Tune - 2016 Hellcat
93 - 743whp
E60 - 804whp
E85 - 843whp
NO tune changes, just fuel change for a 100whp gain!

So according to that, you'd be leaving about half your possible gains on the table if you only went to E50. Just curious on yours and others thoughts on this as well.

I'm waiting for either Curt or Tim/Satera's flex tune to be ready remotely. Otherwise I'd have to ship my car up to one of them. At this point I'm also trying to see if either Curt's FF or Satera's FF has any advantages or disadvantages over another. One advantage is price for Curt's FF. I know he mentioned that Ford and Dodge use wideband for FF, and I believe that Chevy is the one that uses a FF sensor, like Satera's method. I have seen the readout display with Satera's method via performance gauges (I do like that). Mostly I'd like to know which method if any is more accurate and which of the two has a faster response time to +/-E% changes. Overall is one more safe than other.

Curt can tune yours remotely that’s how mine was done

 

[MaxCarnage]

This is one of the reasons I wanted to do the flex setup, you can just switch back and forth as needed. I'd not leave E85 in the tank for a long time personally.

That brings up another question, any other maintenance items that change when running ethanol? I mean real documented stuff like flex fuel vehicle owner's manuals suggesting more frequent oil changes or something?

The only other maintenance item I've heard about is injectors. Either pulling them (Depending on E usage) and cleaning them, or running some gasoline every other tank or so.