Those running flex fuel get in here :)

[MaxCarnage]

Curt can tune yours remotely that’s how mine was done

Sorry to be clear, I own a Redeye. I've ask Curt a couple times and he's not ready to do remote FF tunes until he gets more Redeyes in person and feels comfortable doing a remote tune on them. Hellcats yes he'll remote tune those.

 

[hellno]

I've heard people mention to change the oil more often. I often hear 3,000 miles or so. However, what if you don't do lots of driving (like me)? Is there is a length of time recommendation? That might depend on usage of ethanol. I personally plan on racing on FF (or getting a dedicated E85 tune for just racing).

Just imo I think after racing is like to change it but under normal conditions there’s no reason to change it just going by your oil percentage ( on my vehicles I always changed it at 50percent oil life )
But that’s just me I only want to make sure the lubricity of the oil isn’t compromised from being a little rich fuel mixture when racing, I’ve seen post of where lifters failed and stuck ( on ethanol tuned cars) imo it’s because of the ethanol in the oil

 

[hellno]

Sorry to be clear, I own a Redeye. I've ask Curt a couple times and he's not ready to do remote FF tunes until he gets more Redeyes in person and feels comfortable doing a remote tune on them. Hellcats yes he'll remote tune those.

Oh sorry then I misspoke

 

[MaxCarnage]

Just imo I think after racing is like to change it but under normal conditions there’s no reason to change it just going by your oil percentage ( on my vehicles I always changed it at 50percent oil life )
But that’s just me I only want to make sure the lubricity of the oil isn’t compromised from being a little rich fuel mixture when racing, I’ve seen post of where lifters failed and stuck ( on ethanol tuned cars) imo it’s because of the ethanol in the oil

Agreed. I want to do it the right amount, but I don't want to overdue it. After every race seems a bit much to me, lol. Right now I change my oil every 6 months because I never reach the 6k miles. I currently have about 1500 miles on my Redeye and I've owned it a year. It's a weekend car to me, and it sits for 4-5 months for winter.

The best solution might be to ask whomever I have tune it for FF.

 

[Speedy!]

@Speedy!

I noticed a couple times you seemed to have mentioned that after about E50+ the gains aren't as great to E85 as they are initially. I've seen others post that as well. However, I've seen Tim Barth via FB post quite a few results that seem to show nice gains to E85, from a lower level of E.

Example post:

800hp Performance Package - Flex Fuel Tune - 2016 Hellcat
93 - 743whp
E60 - 804whp
E85 - 843whp
NO tune changes, just fuel change for a 100whp gain!

So according to that, you'd be leaving about half your possible gains on the table if you only went to E50. Just curious on yours and others thoughts on this as well.

I'm waiting for either Curt or Tim/Satera's flex tune to be ready remotely. Otherwise I'd have to ship my car up to one of them. At this point I'm also trying to see if either Curt's FF or Satera's FF has any advantages or disadvantages over another. One advantage is price for Curt's FF. I know he mentioned that Ford and Dodge use wideband for FF, and I believe that Chevy is the one that uses a FF sensor, like Satera's method. I have seen the readout display with Satera's method via performance gauges (I do like that). Mostly I'd like to know which method if any is more accurate and which of the two has a faster response time to +/-E% changes. Overall is one more safe than other.

Those are interesting power numbers for the different E contents. I'm not at all an expert on this stuff, yet, so I'm only going by what I've researched so far. As we work through the tuning process I'll have a better idea of what's what. I can tell you I'm up 4 degrees of timing at E57 vs what I was running on 93 so far. The tank is getting low, so I'll be topping up with more E85 and seeing where it goes next.

On your question about Curt vs Satera's, the main difference is direct sensor vs inferred logic like most OEMs use in their FF vehicles. The sensor will get immediate input where the inferred takes about 3-4 minutes to realize alcohol content changes then stabilizes. Example, I was reading 0% on Shell 93 when I pulled up to the E85 pump, had 3 gallons of 93 in the tank. I added 7 gallons of E85 and within 3-4 minutes my alcohol % read 57% which was accurate. I'm a KISS kinda guy, and so far I'm really liking the simplicity of the inferred logic setup. I'm liking that E85 is $1.70 per gallon as well for the added performance.

I don't know that I'd make any more or less power on flex fuel vs Renegade RM109. What I will say is on Renegade RM109 I'll KNOW I have good fuel in the tank, and with flex it's well, flex. I could always check it before getting on the track of course. I've already picked up 10 5 gallon pails of RM109 for my race season, so for this year at least I'll stick with it. Maybe I'll get real creative and start mixing RM109 and E85 for the ultimate fuel

 

[fubar569]

Satera being a direct sensor will have a quicker response time and more accuracy. I dont think anyone would dispute that. It's just how it works when compared to an inferred logic setup. Inferred is good enough for major OEM and warranty though so as long as your tuner isn't a meatball you're in solid hands up until some pretty stupid power levels.

Oil changes should be more frequent on E fuels. How much more is up to debate but I thought I read that the Ford recommendation is every 5k vs going by the OLM/10-15k on straight pump. If you do not race often or otherwise punish the car excessively I'd say 3k is a good compromise. I changed the oil every other race weekend in the turbo hayabusa that ran E85 but that was 460whp and 180+ traps.

Injector maintenance will depend a lot on quality of fuel and filtration. I dont usually run E85 for extended periods without blending down to pump gas. Usually a month will go by and I'll run a tank of 93 thru it. ALWAYS ALWAYS store the car on pump gas with as little ethanol as possible and preferably with a stabilizer if over the winter. I have never had to pull injectors out of my flex cars for cleaning but the bike needed done once a season generally.

 

[hellno]

@MaxCarnage I didn't mis spek curt can tune it remotely

 

[MaxCarnage]

Those are interesting power numbers for the different E contents. I'm not at all an expert on this stuff, yet, so I'm only going by what I've researched so far. As we work through the tuning process I'll have a better idea of what's what. I can tell you I'm up 4 degrees of timing at E57 vs what I was running on 93 so far. The tank is getting low, so I'll be topping up with more E85 and seeing where it goes next.

On your question about Curt vs Satera's, the main difference is direct sensor vs inferred logic like most OEMs use in their FF vehicles. The sensor will get immediate input where the inferred takes about 3-4 minutes to realize alcohol content changes then stabilizes. Example, I was reading 0% on Shell 93 when I pulled up to the E85 pump, had 3 gallons of 93 in the tank. I added 7 gallons of E85 and within 3-4 minutes my alcohol % read 57% which was accurate. I'm a KISS kinda guy, and so far I'm really liking the simplicity of the inferred logic setup. I'm liking that E85 is $1.70 per gallon as well for the added performance.

I don't know that I'd make any more or less power on flex fuel vs Renegade RM109. What I will say is on Renegade RM109 I'll KNOW I have good fuel in the tank, and with flex it's well, flex. I could always check it before getting on the track of course. I've already picked up 10 5 gallon pails of RM109 for my race season, so for this year at least I'll stick with it. Maybe I'll get real creative and start mixing RM109 and E85 for the ultimate fuel

Thanks for the info. I'm just liking the idea of having ONE tune IF possible for everything. I get that FF is usually tuned safer than a straight E85 tune, but I like the simplicity of having just one tune for street/track. I do like that the sensor sees the change instantly. However, you should be able to race with Curt's Inferred version as long as you drive it far enough to recognize the correct level of E content. If you needed more at the track and had to add a few gallons that might change your content percent, but the car wouldn't know it unless you let it sit there and idle until it corrected itself.

I'll be curious to see what makes more power RM109 or ethanol. I'd venture to guess ethanol, especially at higher percentages.

 

[Speedy!]

Well, I think my injectors are going to work out. Car was low on fuel (Go Man Go is much thirstier it seems LOL) so I topped up with 10 gallons of E83 measured fuel. Log read alcohol as 79 - 83%.

Made a WOT pull first to 6300 to check things out and topped out around 73% inj DC, so I made another hit up to 6500 and they never went above 75%. Fuel pump DC 77% fuel pressure 85psi. It was about 65° F aircharge was 1850+, 2.18 - 2.19 pratio, and about 17psi of boost. I figure anything below 85-90% on inj DC should be good so even in 30 degree air I doubt I'd go much higher than 80 %.

Having that extra pump behind the injectors seems to make all the difference.

So far I'm about +5 deg of add'l timing over the 93 octane tune and no STKR. Pretty crazy for $1.66 a gallon. I'm within spitting distance of what my RM109 race tune has for timing advance.

Still have more testing/tweaking to do, I wanna get the alcohol % reading to move faster if possible. I suspect there's some kind of counter that's used as an average variable in there and needs a shorter time to average readings or something. Mike@OST is working on that. Not such a big deal when adding ethanol, but you want it to react very quickly when dumping in 93 so it takes the timing back out quickly. Once we get the timing and fueling where he wants it on E85, we'll start playing with fuel mixes in small quantities to make sure things are reacting appropriately and quickly.

 

[Slipaway16]

If you don't mind, let me make sure I have this correct.

Dual drop in pumps and 1000cc ID's are all you are using to currently run straight e85? I have 1050cc ID's. I just want to make sure i read the last post correctly, that you did not mix any 93 with 10 gallons of E83.

 

[Speedy!]

That is correct, very little if any 93 left in the tank at this point and logs read 79-83% alcohol. Remember, I'm a simple upper pulley only car making 17-18psi. That's why I'm able to do this. More boost and I'd need bigger injectors.

 

[Slipaway16]

I understand and thank you. I'm running a 2.85 upper and you now have me thinking about e85 a little more.

 

[Speedy!]

Then you'll be in even better shape than I am. I'm really hoping this continues to work out as it'll be really nice to just pour in some E85 and pick up 50+ RWHP and keep things cooler this summer to boot, but be able to just put 93 in if I'm not in an area with E85.

I have 4-5 E85 stations within 2 miles of my house, but I don't know of any in KY where I drag race so those trips back and forth will still be doable on 93.

 

[Slipaway16]

I will keep my eye on this thread. Great info so far.

 

[fubar569]

I put just enough 93 in the car to get where I'm going and usually carry 15gal of E85 in cans just incase they dont have any in mexico.

 

[joeslokat]

I did not read all 4 pages of this post, but I am around 1000whp and running the satera true flex fuel. It takes him 3 days to tune and does it at 4 different levels which is why he currently only does it in house. The thing is I am not running the same timing or power at each level. I get to make more power the better my content is. I would have no problem driving to california, popping some e85 in and then driving back home to the midwest.

Make sure that the kit you are getting has a sensor that reads content and adjusts timing and and fueling based on content. Otherwise you're not running flex fuel for power, just to be able to say you can run multiple fuels.

 

[fubar569]

That is exactly how inferred logic works minus the direct sensor. Accuracy depends on a number of variables. Both accomplish the same task.

If the lack of sensor were an issue...both ford and dodge would've copied GM...but they didn't.

 

[coolblue]

Any one have any numbers on pricing (@From/to) for the tunes alone? and with the hard ware (injectors/pulleys) included? I'm assuming Curt's is cheapest because he uses existing hardware and the others are more expensive because of extra sensors and labor to do it.

 

[FFBOS]

I’ve run e70/e85 for 15k straight. Believe it or not, I still look at the fuel before every fill up in my mason jar. I caught a gas station error with a “miss fill” in the e85 tanks. I just no longer use the test tube.

My 1D1300s have been fine. I change oil every 3k.

 

[Maxboost]

Then you'll be in even better shape than I am. I'm really hoping this continues to work out as it'll be really nice to just pour in some E85 and pick up 50+ RWHP and keep things cooler this summer to boot, but be able to just put 93 in if I'm not in an area with E85.

I have 4-5 E85 stations within 2 miles of my house, but I don't know of any in KY where I drag race so those trips back and forth will still be doable on 93.

Just going to reply in bulk as I just read the whole post. I’m still not convinced the longevity is there for the e85 tuning. I also have e85 close and would tend to run e85 all the time. I don’t like the cold start rough idling and having to warm the car. Call me spoiled or just lazy I’m good with both. I have 11,000 miles now and drive this car in every situation as I feel the need. Maybe the tuning part is better now then it was 4 months ago when I contacted the tuners. The users can confirm.
You are mentioning timing up from your 93 tune but is it a aggressive tune? My 93 tune is maxed at 12/13 degrees but maybe your running 9 or something like that. Just looking at comparing race gas to e85/mix. What percentage do you need to surpass your race gas tune power wise.